Curse

Castanza · Jun 09, 2005, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by proffbeer

Castanza you forget something there, some people just what everything handed to them on a silver platter. So no matter what anet does there will be some people that whine about the grind, even if it only takes them 10 mins to make a, oh what the terms people use now, uber elite godly character.

But as far as drops, the only thing i noticed is the ettins outside beetletun don't have the same drop ratio they did have. Been farming the crap out of that area since yesterday

i think it is also an issue about the definition of grind, i think a grind in a game is doing something over and over and over again because you have to in order to get further in the game, i think some people think of grind as spending hours farming for somthing that you want, in my opinion thats not grind thats you doing something that you want to, and items in this game don't play that much of an importance.

The only grind i've really found in this game in my opinion is with some of the missions, when you have to start over and over and over again because there is not save points or rez points if your whole team dies, but this is just my opinion

Mistress Eyahl · Jun 09, 2005, 04:50 AM // 04:50

I think a lot of people posting negative replys are the ones who like to maybe zoom right through? They saw that getting to level 20 meant rewards. Armor, runes, cash... entrance into good farming locations.
Please try to remember that although some if not most, of the game is AFTER level 20, they are trying to ensure that people can enjoy the game from the start as it was meant to be played.. via the storyline. For those who have DONE that, I do feel sorry for you, cos farming was your thing. But I reckon they expected PvP to be satisfactory for you.

I.e.. make a char.. play the storyline.. Pvp with those two classes. Then start again.

I would like to add that making the game slightly different for each profession would be kinda cool. Something easy to add like a quest here and there that requires your profession's skills. Like right at the start of pre-ascalon. Some people playing are just gonna need that extra bit of drive.
But.. if they don't have it and stop playing.. who loses out, I mean really.. who?

Bobum · Jun 09, 2005, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Castanza

i think a grind in a game is doing something over and over and over again because you have to in order to get further in the game, i think some people think of grind as spending hours farming for somthing that you want, in my opinion thats not grind thats you doing something that you want to, and items in this game don't play that much of an importance.

EXACTLY!! This is a great point - I looked at farming as sorta like fishing in real life...you do the same thing over and over again and each time hope to pull in that big one...it's not a grind at all...it's fun AND sometimes rewarding. The fact that I don't have to do it to live, makes it fun and not a grind. Same with the game. If you HAVE to do this over and over to progress the game, then it's a grind. If it's by choice to try and get something cool, then it's just having fun. And just because I go out and fish and catch a big one, doesn't mean that someone shoud just GIVE you a big fish as well because you don't wanna get out on the boat and do it...

Bobum · Jun 09, 2005, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mistress Eyahl

Please try to remember that although some if not most, of the game is AFTER level 20

You are 100% correct here - as I am now finding out! It's pretty good stuff!

Bobum · Jun 09, 2005, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mistress Eyahl

they are trying to ensure that people can enjoy the game from the start as it was meant to be played.. via the storyline.

I don't see how this latest patch encourages people to play via the storyline AT ALL...if anything I'd say it moves them away from that type of play to a "just gotta level" mentality because getting some of the uber goods has become so much easier.

It just seems to me and evidently others that with the latest patch, the trend is going to be towards just making really easy for every character to be exactly the same. With all the same skills, all the same attributes, all at uber level, all with uber armor, all with uber weapons. They seem to be taking out all the reasons to actually PLAY the game and build your character in favor of just making it super easy to get to uber level so you can be competative at the highest level of PVP. Why not just play Unreal Tournament?

It's still new - we'll see...

Gaile Gray · Jun 09, 2005, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Castanza

I love how everyone reads the parts that they want to read and ignore the rest of what was said in the update

..."it is our intention to address the larger issue of the need for farming by assessing how players acquire and unlock items, runes, and skills, and then by taking steps to ensure that players can acquire and unlock these things through normal gameplay. We believe that the most effective way to play the game should also be the most fun way to play the game. You can expect to see the first meaningful changes towards this goal next week."

I hope those of you who are saying that there is going to be more grind now read that and understand what they are trying to do, they are going to be making the effort to get rid of the need to farm in order to unlock items in the game. this isn't going to happen all at once, but they are taking their time and doing it right, have some patience

Thank you for reading, and understanding. Your faith is well placed and will be borne out by the future.

Mistress Eyahl · Jun 09, 2005, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobum

I don't see how this latest patch encourages people to play via the storyline AT ALL...if anything I'd say it moves them away from that type of play to a "just gotta level" mentality because getting some of the uber goods has become so much easier.

Because before, all the goodies were at the end. Me, i had a wicked farming place when I was level 9. Made decent amounts of gold in less than an hour. Allowed me to purchase decent weapons. NOW people can also purchase runes. Although.. why anyone would want to stay in post searing ascalon is beyond me lol.

I think they might be trying to steer away from the NEED to get to places like Lion's Arch, the Desert, Droknars and even level 20 to enjoy SOME benefits of the game. Now you can buy decent armor, stick on your runes, sell some to afford a weapon and off you toddle.

Bollocks if anyone does though

The Pope · Jun 09, 2005, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobum

Who said you had to do every quest out there????

I would agree and disagree with you here - Farming and grinding do take some measure of skill AND dedication to playing the game. Logging in and immidiately having an uber character to go PVP with, takes NO skill. You may as well go play Unreal Tournament if that's the kind of experience you want - why even try playing a game where you build and customize your character if you just want it to be like everyone else with the exact same high level armor ans skills that everyone else has? They are taking out the idea of building YOUR character by YOU playing and just turning it into anyone of the myriad of FPS's out there.

You don't understand. You are the one who wants wins handed to you on a silver platter, not the people who are happy with the patch. You want to win because you have the uber rune of cheating +999, and you don't want anyone else to have it. Now everyone else is getting the uber rune of cheating and you have to earn your wins. If you have skill, you should still win. If you don't, then you don't deserve to win.

Another way of putting it:

Logging in with an uber character takes no skill. Winning with that character takes skill.

Grinding out an uber character takes no skill. Winning with an uber character takes no skill.

Obviously, the first option takes more skill.

ManadartheHealer · Jun 09, 2005, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope

Logging in with an uber character takes no skill. Winning with that character takes skill.

Grinding out an uber character takes no skill. Winning with an uber character takes no skill.

Obviously, the first option takes more skill.

Agreed

Dyeeo · Jun 09, 2005, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mistress Eyahl

I think a lot of people posting negative replys are the ones who like to maybe zoom right through? They saw that getting to level 20 meant rewards. Armor, runes, cash... entrance into good farming locations.
Please try to remember that although some if not most, of the game is AFTER level 20, they are trying to ensure that people can enjoy the game from the start as it was meant to be played.. via the storyline. For those who have DONE that, I do feel sorry for you, cos farming was your thing. But I reckon they expected PvP to be satisfactory for you.

I.e.. make a char.. play the storyline.. Pvp with those two classes. Then start again.

I would like to add that making the game slightly different for each profession would be kinda cool. Something easy to add like a quest here and there that requires your profession's skills. Like right at the start of pre-ascalon. Some people playing are just gonna need that extra bit of drive.
But.. if they don't have it and stop playing.. who loses out, I mean really.. who?

Well the thing is, I am a "normal" player and I really dont have the time or interest in creating another character and getting it to 20 JUST to play the game and get the drops over time. Quite frankly, for me the missions and quests get very boring after the second character or so. I dont think I have the will power to create another character and get it to ascension and beat the game. This patch has caught me right when I have completed two characters and started to embark on getting a bit of gold and items to get some worth while items. Now I have no way to get gold, no way to get items, no gold to spend, and no will to play ALL the missions again :/ The gap between the rich and poor will now be HUGE because those that could farm before have a lot of gold while those who started late are just average.

Mercury Angel · Jun 09, 2005, 07:02 AM // 07:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobum

Let the appeasement of the whiners begin...don't worry if you have no skill, we'll give you rune traders now, don't worry if you have no skill, we'll give you 4000 exp. now for a difficult but not impossible quest, don't worry if you have no skill, we'll give you easy access to elite skills now, don't worry if you have no skills, we'll take all the work out of making your character leet and just turn the game into a medieval/fantasy version of Unreal Tournament where everyone has access to the coolest stuff and we just kill each other all the time in PVP...yea...fun "RPG" guys...

Rune Traders equate to lack of skill? I've farmed before for a while, and unlocked a few nice runes, but I'm finding that it's more luck then skill... Woohoo, 2 more major earth runes, and why not a couple more major inspiration for me? Very first runes I ever got were ALL for warriors, which I never play. I get a minor vigor towards the end, and then I can't stop getting minor vigors. What part of my skill is lacking that I keep finding myself unable to unlock new runes as opposed to getting old ones over and over again?
I also don't like standing around selling the things either, and they were cramping my inventory. I sold a Superior Marksmanship and Superior Healing for just a few k a piece to the trade to get rid of them, and I switched quickly to "Buy" and they were already off the list the next moment. Exactly what I wanted: My junk gone, a little cash, and somebody else benefits.

Never did the Galrath Quest before. If it doesn't unlock new skills, odds are, it's still on my quest log. I've got Duke's Daughter on a character that has ascended, and I still don't plan on doing it any time soon.

What part of skill is involved to make people unable to capture an elite off a boss that is already dead when you get there? To capture it off a boss that uses a stance or quick spell/skill immediately after their elite? To capture a stance that you can't even see being used?
Because I bet a lot of skill-less people out there would like to know what they're doing wrong to suck so badly.

Had you ever stopped to think that there're times where people complain for valid reasons? That just because you haven't run into a specific problem doesn't mean it doesn't exist?

Castanza · Jun 09, 2005, 07:05 AM // 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dyeeo

The gap between the rich and poor will now be HUGE because those that could farm before have a lot of gold while those who started late are just average.

For a while yes this may be true but they won't be able to replenish it as much as they have before, therefore eventually that should even out. Also as arena net makes runes, and items easier to obtain the trade rates for these is going to go down therefore makeing the need to have alot of gold in order to obtain these lessen. because of this i see actually that you might bennefit from this more than you think, unless of course you were looking forward to farming for these items rather than buy them through trade

Zeru · Jun 09, 2005, 07:05 AM // 07:05

The argument of anet giving us uber characters and by doing so is taking all skill away is ludicrous. By that logic you should be able to go into pvp and have an equal chance against anyone else in this game, whether it may be joe idiot's pug or n0. Will that happen when these patches are finished? Most certainly not. The more skilled pvp team, not the team who played more repetitive pve, will win, plain and simple.

As for skill in farming, that might be applied to the handful of people that actually developed the popular and efficient farming builds, most notably the monk smiting one, and used them well enough without any examples. Does that apply to any wannabee newb who dl'ed a random video and copied the same skillset and stuff the person on the video was doing? Or someone who found the build when it was put online? Hardly.

BlaineTog · Jun 09, 2005, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muke

Gentlemen this is fact from a guy who has every skill in the game with 4 classes (soon to be 6). There is no argument. You can say how you picked up a purple rune from your cousins friend bob at the docks by your house. I don't give a damn. They nerfed everyone. Do not take it lightly. You ARE HAVING TO GRIND LONGER. THAT IS A FACT. I hope the caps helped it sink in....I really do.

So in other words, "I'm right. Why? Because! STFU n00b!!111"

ManadartheHealer · Jun 09, 2005, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaineTog

So in other words, "I'm right. Why? Because! STFU n00b!!111"

It's always that way.

Saerden · Jun 09, 2005, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope

Another way of putting it:
Logging in with an uber character takes no skill. Winning with that character takes skill.
Grinding out an uber character takes no skill. Winning with an uber character takes no skill.
Obviously, the first option takes more skill.

Wrong. Grinding takes insane amount of skills. you have to forsake your friends, your job, girlfriend / boyfriend, your real life. Can a mere mortal do this?
You have to totally dedicate yourself to a game in order to have a UBAR character. Only those who are worthy deserve to RULE in pvp. Only those who are willing to ENDURE PAIN are WORTHY. Do you want to hand out everything to WEAK pvp carebears who have no skillZ because they cant play 24/7?

Tuna · Jun 09, 2005, 08:02 AM // 08:02

I think some of you guys have the misconception that PvEers are doing the farming + grinding. Honestly, a PvEer can just buy the rune from a player/merchant; its the PvPers who need to farm to unlock everything. Some of the recent changes threw a huge wrench in our plans.

As you all have read, the patch log talks of rebalancing Caromi Tengu. Those outside of fishermans haven were pretty much the mother of all farming spots - boy am I glad I got them before the nerf. With the nerf, the area is so much harder I doubt a person who would typically be in the area would be able to kill them in a full party of people or henchies. Since this is partly my doing, I appologize to those of you doing the quests out of fishermans haven.

On the subject of farming nerfs: (THIS IS FOR YOU ARENA NET)

I fully understand that game developers such as yourselves would rather people play your game as intended than 'farm' areas to gain an advantage over other players. However, this perticular nerf is going to create many more problems than it has solved. If you read the forums you would know that most people keep their farming spots in a tight circle of friends. This group usually incorporates the 'top' or most competitive guilds. It is pretty much only this group that has most of the runes unlocked due to abuse of farming locations. Average Joe, on the other hand, probably has 3 major runes and a superior if he is lucky by playing through the game. Now this would be expected, however, the problem comes where Average Joe can no longer get these runes if he wanted to. This provides a distinct and lasting advantage to people such as myself with the majority of the runes unlocked.

I realize there are plans to 'improve' this state of affairs, but the improvements are going to have to be drastic to fill the gap between the elite and the poor. The addition of rune traders doesn't offer anything to this problem either. They are an easy way to get runes for a PvE char, but unlocking is really what is needed for PvP.

To those of you who are spouting for PvPers to go back to CS etc, I think you miss the point of Guild Wars. Guild Wars is a PvP game with a (increasingly larger) PvE prerequisite. The fun of this game is when everyone has 'uber chars' duking it out in PvP. The RPG part of CORPG stands more for the fantasy setting than it does for actual roleplaying. Bobum: one you get to PvPing you'll see that cookie cutter builds are not at all encouraged. This game has the hands down best PvP I've seen in any game (including RTS, FPS, and whatever else). The problem is bridging from PvE to PvP.

-Tuna, Member of DrkH

azunder · Jun 09, 2005, 08:06 AM // 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobum

Why didn't they just make a mod for Unreal Tournament if they wanted to make a game that you didn't have to invest any time in to build a character up? With the latest patch - that seems to be the way they are leaning. They seem to be taking out the need to actually PLAY the game in order to build a good character. Just log in, you get the best stuff and go kill other players...sounds VERY much like most FPS's out there...mayber we shold start calling it GuildWars:CounterStrike

This is EXACTLY what the endgame of guild wars is supposed to be about. If you don't like it, then GW is not the kind of game you want. You might as well go to the CS forums and tell them to add level ups and monsters to farm.

The PvE portion is more like the single player campaign of most RPGs out there. Once you're done with the plot, you're done. It's not like an MMORPG where you climb up a ladder of power for 6 months.

Studio Ghibli · Jun 09, 2005, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Shrug.

I got my first superior today.

Salvaged it and got cloth, unfortunately.

Yay for unlocking it though

Draven Mauler · Jun 09, 2005, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Look here. I'm not a whiner. I'm not skill-less or lazy. I'm not somebody who just wants wins handed to me on a platter. The majority of GW players, in contrast to many "l33t" players, have a life...

Lest we forget, the reason online currency and items have a market is because people want what they cant have. Instead of farming the runes or the items/skills/etc. they fork over some cash and voila! Some of these people are lazy, or probably all of them. However, we have to examine why the behavior exists at its root. If I am a college student, a high school senior, a married man, anybody with a need for 8 hrs sleep a night... then I will never match SO CALLED SKILLS with the l33t players of any game. No matter how much skill one has they wont ever have as much currency or l33t items as the loser who spent the last five days in front of his cpu not even taking time to shower. Anet is fully aware that these few losers contribute to the criminals that sell their intellectual property. So yes, they are handing us a freebee of sorts (2red dyes, 1black dye, 10 char hides, a minor rune, and three purple ites in 2 runs from piken square O.o) But believe me the majority of the people who play this game have lives and love Anet all the more. The only ones who are upset are the abnormal players who dedicate countless hours to the game instead of real life.

Anet has an eye on how much time each player is logged into the game. They must have seen a correlation between hours logged into the game and guild rank. So the obvious solution is to make it even easier for somebody with a normal life to succeed just as much as those who are perpetually allergic to sunlight and social interaction. It is funny how those who benefit least from this patch are the ones who feel their "skills" are being infringed upon, when really, it isn't their skills but their egos...